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Eddie Jones interview: England captain’s role for ‘other’ Curry?

EVER since Eddie Jones became head coach the question of leadership among the country’s elite players – or the lack of it – has been a recurring theme.

Soon after taking England to a Grand Slam in 2016, under the captaincy of poacherturned-gamekeeper Dylan Hartley, Jones identified a lack of leaders as a crucial component that needed to be fixed. In February 2017, he said it was part of a wider social issue.

“I think it’s a reality of the way society is… Nowadays, guys don’t go to university, they don’t go out and work, they are in more sheltered environments such as academies. We need to get eight or nine guys who are consistently leaders to be a World Cup-winning side, and we don’t have that at the moment.”

He added: “We have a number of players now who have started individual leadership plans. We will see those players develop over the next period of time.”

Who those players were has never been made clear. However, with another World Cup slipping from England’s grasp, and the 20- year mark looming since Martin Johnson raised the Webb Ellis Cup in celebration of becoming world champions for the first and only time, we can only deduce that it has not left Jones with multiple captaincy choices.

This was reinforced when the head coach announced his 34-man England provisional squad on Thursday for the summer matches against A, and then the and Canada, and the subject re-emerged as a significant topic.

With incumbent skipper Owen Farrell away on Lions duty, Jones started by being coy about who would captain England for the forthcoming fixtures. With no captain named Fast Eddie’s response to an enquiry about who it might be was cautious. He said he knows “100 per cent” who it is, but that he is not ready to tell the rest of us until “the appropriate time”.

This captaincy smokescreen seems like a wasted opportunity to give the squad a publicity boost in an increasingly crowded sporting landscape in which Rugby Union, having made the error of pushing deep into the summer months, is now competing for column inches and air-time against the Euros, the Olympics, Test match cricket and Wimbledon.

There is a good chance that the player Jones has earmarked for the job is Ben Curry, the identical twin of the incumbent England openside, Tom Curry, who will be competing for a place in the 2021 Lions Test team to play .

Jones mentioned again that Ben Curry, who already has national captaincy credentials after leading the side when they were runners-up to in the 2018 Junior World Championship, No one knows” was considered to be ahead of his brother when they were both selected for the 2017 England squad to Argentina.

David Rogers/Getty Images

The head coach used the Curry brothers saga to illustrate the unknown element in selecting 21 uncapped players in his latest squad, with Bath providing eight players of the 34, Leicester six, Newcastle five, Wasps and Northampton four each, London Irish three, and and Worcester two each.

“We don’t know how far these players can go. No one knows. If we go back to four years ago, before the first Test against Argentina, we picked Ben Curry ahead of Tom Curry, because we thought Ben was the better prospect. Then Ben got injured, and he has had a tough time since – but now he is playing some good rugby for Sale, and Tom has gone on and would now be considered one of the foremost back rowers in the world.”

He added: “I don’t think you can ever say where you are compared to the rest of the world –I don’t think that is relevant.

What is the relevant thing now is where these players can go, and how far they can take their careers. That is a combination of how we can provide good coaching, a good team environment, and their desire, and their own work ethic and ability to adapt. That will decide where they go to. There is no limit to it.”

This brings us back to the number of captaincy candidates. Jones’ reluctance to announce Ben Curry as skipper could stem from him not being named in the Eng¬land squad because he is part of the Sale side which is still involved in the Premiership run-in, with no players in the four play- off clubs (, Exeter, Sale, and Harlequins), included at this juncture.

There are a number of other options, with three club captains from the lower half of the league, Bath lock Charlie Ewels, Worces- ter blindside Ted Hill, and Gloucester flanker Lewis Ludlow, selected already, and another, Exeter fly-half Joe Simmonds, likelyto be calledup.

However, Jones made it clear that he is prepared to consider a lass clear-cut route. Asked whether Kyle Sinckler would have been a captaincy Option had the Bristol tighthead not been called up for the Lions, the reply was: “I respect him greatly, and his stature within the team is growing season by season, so there’s no reason in future why he couldn’t be involved.”

He continued by endorsing Ellis Genge’s potential leadership capability, following the 28-cap Leicester loosehead’s inclusion in the squad: “Ellis will tell you that he is from the wrong side of the tracks… What he will also tell you is the power of learning self-discipline, and to be a hard-running prop like he is, he needs not just to satisfy his needs, but also to know what the team needs.”

Gloucester captain: Lewis Ludlow

Kyle Sinckler

Jones went on to praise Genge’s reaction to the controversial scrum decision that resulted in a bout of all-in wrestling – with the prop in the midst of it – as the final whistle was blown on Bristol’s narrow victory over Leicester last weekend.

“I thought the way he handled the Bristol situation was absolutely outstanding. It was his old club, and he put his side in a position to win the game – and whether, rightly or wrongly, it was taken away from him, he handled it wonderfully. Can he take a formal leadership role? There is no reason why he can’t, whether that is in the future, or now.”

Jones’ view on captaincy became even more creative as he put forward the view that the role of captain is changing.

“It really is. We have got a Generation Z that think and feel they want to be empowered and have their say, and that the role of captain has got to meet the demands of his players. And for this tour, we’re going to make sure that we have the right leadership team or group in place. We have some ideas, but we’ll have to flesh them out when the players come in.”

The England head coach believes that old style captaincy is on its way out, and is being replaced by a more consultative ‘leadership group’.

“Is one captain the right thing for a modern team these days? That is the question we are asking, and we want to find a solution.

We’ve seen that in domestic teams they have gone to co-captains, and I can remember with the Brumbies we had one captain and four vice-captains, and people asked why. Because it was the right mixture for that team. So, we are looking at some ideas, and will confirm when we get face-to-face.”

At this juncture I asked whether such an approach to captaincy would affect clarity on the field, especially as the confusion surrounding Chris Robshaw’s late penalty call in the crucial pool defeat by in the 2015 World Cup – and the indecisive leadership group huddle that preceded it – is still etched in the minds of Red Rose supporters.

Jones was not deterred: “You’ve always got multiple voices, that’s not something new. When I played I was very rarely captain, but I can assure you I always had an opinion. That’s always been the case.

Good captains are able to gel that information and make a decision. There still has to be a hierarchy of decision-making – that hasn’t changed – but what might have changed is that the number of roles that have traditionally been the case in rugby, may not be the case any more.”

There are those of us who believe that there is no need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to captaincy, and that clear lines of communication when the game is in the balance, the crowd is raising the roof, and the referee needs a decision, is essential.

It holds to the concept that the captain remains the best conduit for that decision, and if it is particularly difficult a couple of quick soundings from his most trusted teammates is usually all that is required.

By contrast, if you call a parish council meeting of co-captains, vice-captains, as well as defence, breakdown, and set-piece leaders, you can expect a couple of crossed wires at best, and at worst complete chaos.

It is notable that Jones experimented with co-captains when England played the Barbarians in 2017, giving the joint responsibility to Robshaw and George Ford.

He has not used it since, despite England’s narrow win.

There is also the question of whether a new provisional squad, which is full of young uncapped players taking their first steps at international level, is the right environment in which to experiment with captaincy.

Consistent clear messages from a respected player with tactical nous, who is comfortable with responsibility of being captain, is the right course. Change for change’s sake over captaincy is the wrong one if it gets in the way of Jones’ main summer assignment, which is to unearth players to enhance England’s prospects of winning Six Nations titles, and the 2023 World Cup.

EDDIE JONES ON…

…the Leicester Tigers resurgence

Leicester are such an important club for England, historically, and they’ve been the base for most of the successful England sides. They went through a difficult period, now Steve Borthwick is there doing an outstanding job bringing through good young talent. You look at Heyes, Steward, Kelly, they’re all about the same age. They will have a few more in the U20s, so it’s an exciting time for us to pick well-coached players from Leicester.

…the new provisional squad wingers

“Hassell-Collins has got pace and power (and) Bassett has got a sniff for scoring tries. He’s a big, strong, quick lad. He’s going to be competing against the boy from Newcastle, Radwan, then Cokanasiga, who we know previously. They all have pace and power, it’s whether they can adapt to Test rugby.

…London Irish lock prospect Chunya Munga

We’ve been looking at Munga for a while. He’s got something about him. He’s been in the pathway, and is a big, strong, athletic, physical player. He’s an interesting prospect.

…Tom de Glanville’s reaction to his Barbarians booze ban

I just got a picture of him on a park bench, drinking beers. So I might present him with a park bench when he comes in, and make him feel comfortable! I think he’s responded really well. He got left out of our squad, then he had a difficult time at Bath, and now he’s fought his way back in and we are starting to see again the things we saw originally in him. He’s got nice balance, he’s a courageous guy, got a nice feel for the game, and he’s responded well.

…Max Ojomoh’s big leap

I saw him play U20s, and that little bit of experience working with U20s camps helps us with selection. I just think he’s got a nice running game, he’s quite a big boy. He’s struggled to get into the Bath team, but when he has he’s played very well. We’re punting on his potential.

..five players from tenth-placed Newcastle

Dean has an uncanny eye to pick out talent. They usually come through unusual pathways, not England 16, 18, 20s. He has an eye for that talent. They are playing consistently, and are being rewarded for their performances.

…England fans upset about players taking the knee

The most important part of this is respect. I know the team for the previous Six Nations had a difficult conversation because there are guys with all sorts of different views…I know the team decided that everyone would do what they thought was right. In all of this what we are trying to do is respect diversity, and that’s such an important part of not only a sporting team, but society. In terms of the fans, we don’t control how they behave. I would like the fans to respect the players’ decision. Whether it will be, I am not sure.

…George Ford, Jonny May, and Ben Youngs being told to rest

There was a conversation, but it was pretty one-way. Sometimes you just need to tell the players what they need. They all want to keep playing. Sometimes you’ve got to make the decision for the players, what you think is in the best interests of their careers, and in the best interests of the team.

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