Crusaders head coach Mark Jones

Q&A – Mark Jones: Razor’s the best coach I’ve seen

Former Wales wing Mark Jones has made a splash coaching the Crusaders in New Zealand. He tells NEALE HARVEY about his experience of working with the best and outlines his ambitions for the future.

It's been another great year for the Crusaders, how did you land your job there?

It came about when I was at the with Namibia. Prior to that I'd been working for the WRU heading up their development region in north Wales when Phil Davies asked if I'd be interested in helping out with Namibia. I accepted because it was an opportunity I might never have again and then, while I was out in , my agent rang and said the Crusaders and Canterbury were potentially looking for someone, so would I consider it? I asked my wife first and she said yes, so Scott ‘Razor' Robertson rang me and the conversations began. He chatted about my philosophies, what I'd been doing and the roles he had in mind for me, so things went from there.

On being appointed last January you described Crusaders as the ‘best rugby organisation in the world'. How has the reality matched up?

I stand by that. I made my assumption from the outside looking in but it's stacked up to be exactly that and more. Coming into the Crusaders and seeing how the whole operation works from top to bottom, it's just a really well-aligned organisation. It's built for success because everybody across the business has got an unbelievable
connection with each other and, as a result, it becomes a really efficient environment. In turn, that translates into the performance of the players

What did Scott see in you to take a chance on a foreign coach?

Players will have different learning styles and be taught in different ways, so Scott was keen to get somebody from outside the southern hemisphere who could come in with a different pair of eyes and not necessarily agree with everything that was being done already. By their own admission, coaches in New Zealand will say they coach in a pretty similar way because New Zealand Rugby is so well aligned with the teams, and you can see that by the way New Zealand play because it's very much like a Super Rugby team.

One of their strengths is that everyone thinks the same and has the same skill-sets and conditioning, but the international element means you also need to be flexible so Razor sees value in guys like myself – and Ronan O'Gara before me – in having a northern hemisphere view on things. It's a great opportunity to expose myself to a different type of rugby, competition and style and it's been good for both parties because you can offer a different perspective – quite a lot of that has been taken on board in the areas I work in.

Did you speak to O'Gara before taking the job?

I did, but only once I'd been offered the role and it was as much about how he found living in New Zealand as the rugby. He has a few kids and my wife and I have two boys, so it was mainly about how he enjoyed Christchurch and within that we chatted about the rugby as well. He was really positive about it and I sought advice from other ex-Crusaders people I'd been coached by like Steve Hansen and Andrew Hore, who I'd worked with as a Wales player. They gave me really good advice as well.

What's it been like in New Zealand under the shadow of Covid-19?

It's been tougher for my family than me. I had the rugby environment to fall back on and got to know everyone there, but lockdown meant it was harder for Helen and the boys, particularly around new schools and being unable to make new friends. Now we're getting a good opportunity to mix with new people and, while we're still finding our feet, it's going well. Christchurch is a lovely place and we like New Zealand, so it's going great.

Give us a flavour of what Scott Robertson's like to work for?


He's a great guy first and foremost – a really great personality and a people's person. The biggest compliment I could pay him is he lets you be yourself and has a real positive mindset around the way the game should be played. You can see that by the way the Crusaders play and the way he approaches individuals by helping them improve, whether it's myself and my coaching or a player's ability on the field to bounce back from making a mistake or being rewarded for doing something positive. He's just got a really good way with people, always looks for the positives and through that you gain a lot of respect because he treats people the way you like to be treated. For me coming into a new environment and to be able to slot in and feel as comfortable as I have, he sets the benchmark and everyone around him feeds off that. I've learnt a lot from him already.

Would you have Scott as a coach on next year's Lions tour alongside Warren Gatland?

I would, without a shadow of a doubt. I've been lucky to work with a lot of great coaches and holistically, looking at the whole package, he's the best. When you look at his knowledge across all areas – set-piece, defence, attack, man-management – you can see why he's been as successful as he has been. He still wants to get better, though, that's the great thing about him – we've already started talking about how the Crusaders can be better next year. If there's an opportunity to involve him on a Lions tour, I wouldn't hesitate. It would be a good move because while it's the British & Irish Lions and I understand there are a lot of home nation coaches worthy of going on those trips, he would bring his knowledge of the southern hemisphere mentality, particularly in relation to South Africa. Having played against South African teams a lot and won his first Super Rugby title there, he'd bring an awful lot to the table.

Super Rugby Aotearoa won lots of admirers in the north, what was it like to be part of?

It was short, sharp and flew past, but to have ended it with the trophy we have to remind ourselves how lucky we are because we were playing in front of big crowds when in many parts of the world, they hadn't been able to play. Fingers crossed, we'll hopefully get some equally good Mitre 10 Cup and Test rugby here now. Aotearoa was a terrific competition, very physical with a high injury rate, but the speed of it and the skill within it – just the mentality of the teams – was probably what the world wanted to see. Whatever follows next year, let's hope it's just as good.

Best of the best: Crusaders celebrate easing to the Super Rugby Aotearoa title. Kai Schwoerer/Getty Images

Do you think New Zealand have got over their World Cup disappointment now?

New Zealand played pretty well at the World Cup, they just didn't get it right against England. It has galvanised New Zealand rugby and looking at the Aotearoa competition and the number of quality youngsters coming through at the start of a three-year phase going into the next World Cup, New Zealand are in a really strong position. They've got depth across one to 15, and they're probably going to set the benchmark over the next couple of years.

Wales have a similar regional system, so do you think the new dual-contracts will help the Red Dragons reach the next level?

It's difficult to assess because we haven't seen the effect of dual-contracts yet and Covid has complicated so many things, but Wales should be a pretty well aligned union moving forward. The regions are within 60 miles of each other which makes getting the squad together easy and, as a national coaching group, and his guys couldn't have got it any better with the facilities at The Vale. You've got most of the players on hand whenever you need them, so it's set up to be really successful and the playing group has been built over time. 's last couple of seasons saw a real emphasis on youngsters coming through and there's a crop of quality players for the coaches to work with, so the future for Wales in Six Nations and World Cups should be bright.

It's ten years since injury finished your 47-cap playing career age 30, was coaching always something you aspired to do?

It doesn't seem like ten years because it's flown by! I had a couple of nasty injuries earlier in my career, too, so back then I coached Builth Wells, my local team in mid-Wales, just to pass the time. I did all my coaching badges and came back a better player for doing some coaching, so that was when I got a taste for it. When I did finish in 2010, Nigel Davies asked me to stay on and help with the coaching group at the , so I was really grateful for that. If you can't play anymore, the next best thing is coaching and I've had some brilliant times since.

You had a tough year as head coach at Rotherham in 2015/16, finishing tenth in the Championship. Did you still take something from that?

All coaching experiences are good, whether you're winning or losing. I was finishing at Scarlets and thinking of taking a break before taking on my next coaching role, but then I got a call from Rotherham and, as I'd only ever been an assistant before, I thought a head coach role would be beneficial.

It was all a bit last minute and if I had my time again, I'd have gone into a bit more detail about the squad I was inheriting. Lee Blackett had done a terrific job taking them to the play-offs in the previous two seasons, but they'd lost a lot of quality players who'd gained opportunities higher up. The recruitment had been done by the time I got there and while we had a good core group, the depth wasn't there. We started really well but then injuries kicked in and I found out pretty quickly that the is a brutal place. But it was a good learning experience and although we finished tenth, I thoroughly enjoyed it and the feedback I had from players and staff was positive. I left the club on good terms after a year and keep in touch with a lot of good people I worked with.

How much pleasure did you then take from putting RGC 1404 on the Welsh rugby map?

I loved that role and it was another opportunity as a head coach where I could put my learnings from Rotherham in place. North Wales was underdeveloped rugby-wise so to take the region closer to being fully professional was another great experience. The players got their rewards with some good positions in the Welsh and to take a side to the Millennium Stadium and win the National Cup in 2017, beating Ponty-pridd 15-11 in the final, was the biggest day of a lot of players' lives. We developed a lot of players and to see guys like Sam Wainwright (), Afon Bagshaw (Wales 7s), Jacob Botica and Tiaan Loots (both Dragons) go to a higher level was satisfying. It's been a really fruitful time for north Wales rugby and I hope they keep progressing.

You're renowned as an attack-minded coach, so what's it like now working with stars like Richie Mo'unga, Jack Goodhue, George Bridge, Sevu Reece and Will Jordan?

It's an absolute pleasure seeing these guys put their craft on the training pitch. They're incredibly talented but it's all built around hard work and a mentality to get better. It probably goes back to their childhoods and the coaches they've come across along the way, with grassroots or provincial teams. When you think some of them have won four titles on the trot, that's not by luck. These guys are just driven to be better.

What are your coaching roles at Crusaders, and how will things change going into the Mitre 10 Cup with Canterbury in a fortnight?

Predominantly I've been coaching defensive aspects – phase defence in particular – but restarts, the defensive contact area and our aerial work come into it as well. It's been a wide-ranging remit and I work closely with Andrew Goodman, our backs coach, and attack coach Scott Hansen who have been awesome. Moving into the Mitre 10 Cup, I'll be taking on the attack and backs myself. I'm really excited about it as it will add to my skill-set.

You've got another year in NZ, what are your ambitions beyond that?

We don't yet know how Super Rugby will look next year so you've just got to be flexible and take it day by day. We're loving it here and will just try to enjoy the next year or so, but in relation to future ambitions it's no different to being a player, you just want to be at the highest level you can. Coaching at the Crusaders, I'm applying my craft at the highest level of domestic rugby.

There aren't any Welsh head coaches in Wales right now, would that interest you one day?

There's a load of good Welsh coaches dotted around the world – Lyn Jones (Russia), Kingsley Jones (Canada) and Phil Davies was with Namibia – but there are only so many coaching jobs around. I'm passionate about Welsh rugby and, having loved coaching at the Scarlets for five years and with Wales in 2013, plus all the other experiences I've had, I'd love to get back one day and ply my trade in my home country. In the meantime, it's good to have Welsh coaches in other places because it's a good advert for what we have to offer.

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